I was on the phone for nearly an hour yesterday with a particular agency up north that reports livestock losses in the state. I called to introduce myself and my kennel and my breeding program and was given a most avid reception with promised followup and regular contact and strong opportunity for puppy placement with ranchers up there for sheep and cattle operations. In this state the wolf losses are mounting up to astronomical figures - we are talking wolves taking down three grown head of cattle only 20 miles from a major city.

One of the horror stories I heard was four wolves took out ELEVEN LGD's in one fatal attack.

Now, what's wrong with this picture?

The LGD's were mostly Maremmas. So let's look at the Maremma for a minute - a rustic, large, aggressive, thick boned, husky breed in its native country of Italy. But here in America, what do you see? Thin boned, slender, small, fine featured Maremmas. So why is this happening? And why are these American bred Maremmas not standing up to predators?

Again, here we go: the degradation of a great breed of dog by the American show ring/pet enthusiasts. If there was ever a case of pointing out why I personally am so against LGD's being swept up into the show world, this is it.....

By breeding for conformation and looks, the dog's intrinsic guardian instinct and courage and ferocity against threats has been diminished.

I told this person, if it had been 11 adult Boz, fresh out of Turkey, the wolves would have been shredded to bits. Or Kangals - and I don't mean some of the show ring or inbred / over-linebred Kangal strains in this country...... I mean Kangals like Trefino of Kangal Mex in Mexico puts out, or Turkish Kangals. And, although I have no experience yet to back this up, maybe a few rugged tested adult Spanish Mastiffs thrown in who are battle savvy.

If there was ever an argument for the way I raise my dogs - in a pack, breeds and sexes intermingling - this is it. Because my dogs do and will fight. And this gives them experience. They are not coddled in that regard. And here again, is where I run rogue from many LGD breeders who will pen up pups inside a field so the sheep can come see the puppies.....no not here. My pups run with the big dogs....they go into the stock when they want....nothing is held back....they run literally like a wolf pack. When there are fights here, dogs will team up and help one another. And although of course, I break it up to prevent too bad of injuries, what am I allowing these dogs to learn by doing this? They are in a similar situation as would be encountered outside if they were suddenly attacked by wolves.....they are learning how to fight as a TEAM. And this is absolutely CRUCIAL if they are to survive an attack by a wolf pack!

I don't know of anyone else who raises their LGD's the way I am in this country. It is common to do like this in EU and Turkey. But lets look at the pack dynamics in a fight again with an example.

My Kangal bitch once jumped one of my Pyr girls, a kind hearted soul. She got Petra down and was going to kill her. Well here come's Petra's brother and sister - to the rescue. Pinta got on top of my kangal and got her by nape of neck and began pulling her off and lacerating her ears - meanwhile, 160 pd brother Peso comes in doing 'drive by body slams' - he literally would come charging in, slam Elmas my kangal on the side, throwing her off balance, then keep going as to not be bitten. Then he'd make a U turn, and here he'd come again, slamming her. By siblings attacking her in unison I was finally able to pull her off of Petra and save Petra's life.

Were the two fighting dogs hurt? You bet! Did they live? Of course..... Was this a lesson? YES. I have seen by example how my dogs would fight off wolves if on the range and a pack arrived to get my goats.

I have to wonder, how many people even think about this, this way? How many people who raise LGD's even study how their dogs fight, or do they just panic and hose them down or break it up and punish them? My punishment is short and sweet, I grab the offender and snarl and perhaps shake or throw down on back to show superiority, then that's it.....the fights don't last long here anymore - if a minute that's an eternity in a dog fight - most are under 60 seconds long.

But how many people even understand or try to understand that fighting like this, teaches your dogs what they have to do to keep stock protected? How many breeders keep studs away from females all the time because they're afraid of fights? And actually......afraid of their dogs?????? Hmmmmmmmmm.......

Running a pack like this, is not for faint of heart. I have become almost blase, pragmatic, about fights. Even Coban, her males go at it all the time. But guess what? If a coyote were to come through her fences in there, don't think for a minute, her two males, fight savvy and wise to combat, won't have the edge over other LGD's who are coddled......

But back to four wolves killing eleven dogs. Unthinkable.....a true statement of breeder failure and the demise of a great breed. I would be embarrassed if those had been my dogs..... They obviously did not know or never learned how to defend in a pack.

I would like to hear what others think about this.

You need to have worthy guardians. There are a lot of options.
It is everybodies own responsibilty to purchase the right dogs.
The Carpatins go to exposition to bee judged if they fit the breed standard and they also work!

Nothing is wrong with exposition in general, the transforming of breeds to pet dog and changing the standard for that purpose is what is the problem.

But when one stays with the standard one can see what the dogs appearance, character and utility is.
As long as i the original standard is honored the breed will stay complete.

It is very undesirable to have multiple type character bloodlines in each breed. There allready are a lot of those.
Show line and work line should be the the same. A very hard and challenging subject...

Ray,

I am going to try to find out more about the dogs that were killed. Namely, how old were they? How long had they been guarding? Where were they from? Sexes? Bloodlines? Etc. But that outcome is totally unacceptable, to lose that many dogs....and they outnumbered the wolves more than two to one.

I think in your country things have not degraded to the degree they have here. I know there are exceptions. I have for instance, three mastine from an Int. Ch. male who does NOT work, he is a stud, and shown. But in his genes still lie the great guarding instinct because his puppies have it and are some of my best guardians.

I remember reading about a Spanish Mastiff named Tigre, a brindle dog who was a 'field dog' i.e. working dog only, he came into the cities and was shown, and swept everything. He was that great of a dog.

But you are right in that it IS the transforming of breeds to pet dog (including 'toning down' their temperaments to suit pet status) and changing the standards for that purpose, is the problem. But it is too in the ring, when prejudiced judges might place show ring dogs over working types. It is political, too.... Now I see photos of a lot of what wins in Spain these days, extremely heavy, low to ground Spanish Mastiffs. And I wonder to myself could they hold up in a working environment, could they tackle a wolf and defend themselves.....????? Would they even want to?

Somewhere between two extremes is the answer. But my focus here is only to breed working dogs, dogs who WILL and CAN defend against predation, and hence, so many of my dogs are un-papered, but out of known working stock, and they have passed this on to their get. And I still think, environment plays key role in puppy formation, raised in kennel or in pack or outside. Ironically the three mastine pups out of this Int. Ch. male, raised outside in a pack, I attribute that as well, to their success as guards, the way the breeder raised them and continues to raise all her dogs in CZ, I think is key element to how they turn out.

I look forward to hear what you find out.
The outcome IS unacceptable and lessons can be learned!

Unfortunately also in my country the show dog problem is big. It's a global issue...
I also work with working blood lines and didn't involve in expositions.

But recently I changed my mind on that: I am now doing the Cynology courses untill I am a liscensed judge.
People with the right motivation are needed to make a difference and with that contibute to good dog breed quality.

It is important to unite with people who share vision to make a difference.
By collaborating with multiple good people a difference can be made for a lot of breeds.
The way Carpatin Club Romania is operating is a hard , but very good. Results are clearly visible!

Recently I found a document regarding the Sharpei; an alround working dog originally used for hunting and also as livestock guardian. In the document is a standard comparison between the original working dog and a changed pet dog standard. One can see how the breed is being transformed, step by step, from a utility dog to a defected and deformed animal...

For me more reason to contribute to safeguarding utility dog breeds!

Note: For our project we also raise the Carpatins in the pack where they will work in for the rest of their lives. They are raised with livestock and are socialized with people and other animals.

You stay righ up there on your soapbox... because you are correct. Good posts from all...thank you.
Kate

Good posts and thoughts, yes...I've never been around show dog people however I do agree, too much of that stuff can kill a good working breed really fast if the instinct gets bred out of them. I have to think that is why so many people seem to be bringing over these new breeds and trying them maybe they are not 'ruined' as bad yet.

I do agree those wolves killing all those dogs is unacceptable, something must have gone haywire there...or the dogs were scared....who knows...?

The only way to conserve a working breed is to stay with the origins and the original standard.
Expositions are also important to not allow the breed to change!

Feel free to read these articles:

http://carpatinclub.ro/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=22&Itemid=35&lang=en

For interested people that want to really get to know this magnificent breed: contact the Carpatin Club.

Ray,
Nicely written articles....I did not even know this breed existed prior to your posting here. Beautiful dogs.
Thanks you for taking the time to participate.
Kate Howe

Thanks Kate,

I only got to know this breed two years ago and after good research and investigation I am convinced by this breed! More than I have ever ben convinced by a dog breed in all my dog career.

The Carpatin, its history and the culture of Transilvania (Romania) are unmistakely bonded.

In our Muskwa Wild predator conflict prevention projects there could not be abetter breed than the Carpatin for many reasons.
We are constantly monitoring the performance and wellbeing of the dogs, so we are always up to date with results and compare them to other dogs in the region.

I will post some pictures from our project dogs on this forum later, if you like.

Ray

Yes, Please post pictures when you have time....I appreciate having the information on many breeds here. It is good for people to understand the way different breeds work and what makes each breed unique.
Thank you,
Kate